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Prohibitionist christians vs. users of psychoactives

All drug users are going to roast in the fiery flames of the burning pit of hellfire and brimstone in eternal torment, because they have sinned the greatest, unforgivable sin: they have rejected believing in Jesus as God and their only savior. Despite the fact that almighty omnipotent God puts belief into the hearts of His choosing, and hardens the hearts of whomever He wills, His justice is without blemish. Whomever He withholds grace from, fails to put faith in Jesus, and must pay the price for their inner action of belief that has been given to them.

If you don't believe God is against drugs, look up 'drugs' in the index of the recent Catholic catechism. Also read the many, tightly argued books in the Gospel bookstores demonstrating the Christian case against drugs, such as... well, I don't have the titles handy. But look into these rich arguments and you will be forced to admit that the case is closed and beyond any possibility of doubt.

Jesus Christ sends the helper, the paraclete, as the ammunition (with a protective sacred taboo) to expose Lucifer Satan the Devil as a sham, a delusion. The paraclete is the helper is the assistant sent by Jesus is LSD.

Some say: It's a Biblical doctrine that drugs are forbidden. Also, because the Bible forbids it, we faithful are obligated to enact this doctrine into the law of the land.

It's not at all clear that there is such a doctrine, but more importantly, whether or not there is such a doctrine to be found in the Bible, the Bible declares that that type of "doctrine" is merely a "law" (like a Jewish religious law) and is thus profoundly less important for salvation than belief in Jesus. Also, even if adherence to such lifestyle doctrines were the basis for salvation, it is not clear that we should write these doctrines into the law of the land, and put violators in jail.

Jesus emphatically permits eating or drinking anything, the New Testament emphasizes that sin comes from within, we are not prohibited to eat or drink anything: Mark 7:6, Mathew 15:7, the Bible clearly says that you may ingest anything

Mathew 15:7-20 --

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: NOT THAT WHICH GOETH INTO THE MOUTH DEFILETH A MAN; BUT THAT WHICH COMETH OUT OF THE MOUTH, THIS DEFILETH A MAN. Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? But he answered and said, Every plant [doctrine], which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. (emphasis added)

Mark 7:6-23 --

He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people HONOURETH ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME. Howbeit IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: THERE IS NOTHING FROM WITHOUT A MAN, THAT ENTERING INTO HIM CAN DEFILE HIM: BUT THE THINGS WHICH COME OUT OF HIM, THOSE ARE THEY THAT DEFILE THE MAN. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
(emphasis added)

Trip on, in fear and trembling before the power of the LORD, Jesus Christ, who gave his perfect life for our sins, as a complete and final ransom sacrifice, denying his own will and serving only the will of God, in order to purchase our freedom and our everlasting life in heaven. May the Holy Spirit take you away.

Entheogen theorists will find it worthwhile to look up and post the passages mentioned below.

Rev 10 - Take this book from my (angel) hand, and it eat up; it will be sweet in your mouth but bitter in your belly.

See also Ezekiel, for another scroll to be eaten. Angel in vehicles deliver small scrolls that taste sweet, make the stomach nauseous, and give visions.

Jesus could not have said it any clearer: all sin comes from within our heart (our inner nature), not from what entereth a man. (Math.15:7-20, Mark 7:6-23). Thus are believers in Jesus permitted (not-forbidden) to ingest what they will. Many Christians want for there to be a passage that says "Thou shalt say No." But the scriptures do not say that.

Any Christian who says that Christianity is against drug use is inventing their own version of Christianity, rather than following God's word as printed in the scriptures. The latest Catholic Catechism has an entry for drugs which you must read. It states that because drugs harm your body, they are not to be used. Inventing Christianity as you go is good enough for Rome, but it's not good enough for true Protestants. Any Protestant who fails to test their interpretation of Christianity against what is actually in the Bible, is not a Bible-based Christian, but a man-made Christian, an apostate, so-called Christian. A make-it-up-as-you-go Christian, driven by dogmatic feelings of aggressive righteousness, rather than gentle humility of reproachment and correction, a humility that respects the authority of God's word above their own inclinations.

It is Satan who is against drugs, which would expose his activities inside of us to a penetrating light.

Go into the Christian bookstores and tell them, "I shall continue to use acid, pot, and heroin heavily, unless you can sell me a book that shows that the Bible prohibits drug use." You will walk out of the store empty handed, because try as they might, there are no books that show passages from the Bible probiting drug use, because there are no such passages, despite the arbitrary dogmatic prohibitionism of popular-fundamentalist Christians. Other fundamentalist Christians search the scriptures, and conclude that drugs are a sacrament, and a vehicle for the Holy Spirit, who is the least studied and least understood of the Trinity. There are Christians who strive to base their beliefs upon the Bible, rather than on their own wishes, and who dose in fear and trembling before the omnipotence of the Lord. Drugs may be a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit -- will you wage war against a source of religious inspiration? You risk taking sides against God. There exists no Bible-based argument against drugs.

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. ... [And Jesus said, to Peter] Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man."

-- Jesus, in Matthew 15:11. Also, in Mark 7:15, for those who wish to hear otherwise:

"Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."

Read the surrounding verses; these verses are not isolated out of context to change the meaning. A Christianity based on what man wants is false. If you reject such plain and clear messages in the Bible, you might as well become a Catechism-following Catholic, or compose a Protestant Catechism, although that would be an affront to The Book -- a denial of the finality of the supposed personal word of God. Argue against Jesus at your own risk.

People are being persecuted for their use of drugs, and the prisons are overflowing with citizens made into criminals and sinners through unjust laws and false doctrines.

LSD and altered-state enthusiasts, please read and even save this message. We must be informed in our arguments, and we must be able to converse effectively with various groups of Christians. This ability to intelligently refute unfounded attitudes has put even the DEA on the defensive.

If you are not willing to engage with Christians to refute their pseudo-Christian doctrines against drugs, then you might want to skip this posting. But consider, that Christians have the power of the vote.

It behooves lsd users to understand certain essential doctrines in the New Testament, which many voters take as the written word of the agreement or contract from God to humanity, and would like to make into a basis for enacting laws regulating everyone's conduct.

Those interested in the Biblical stance on sexual, recreational, and lifestyle freedom will also find this posting valuable, because it addresses the core of Bible-based morality and shows that adherence to rules of conduct are profoundly less significant than faith in Jesus and love for God and neighbor as for oneself.

Taking a code-based approach to salvation aims to put our salvation into our own hands. There are some fundamentalists who believe that LSD can be a vehicle for the Holy Spirit. I met a Bible thumper, an actual street-corner evangelist holding a stenciled sign reading "Repent, Jesus is Coming", who thinks that LSD is not necessarily a sin at all. And this was a very rule-based Christian, too -- so much so that I will point out the verses to correct his attitude if I see him again. Meeting him and talking for hours was a great day for acid-inspired Christianity, for Christians who have been brought to faith by the Holy Spirit speaking through the little scrolls.

If God is Love, then we are to seek peace, not war, over these `religious' rules not to get physically drunk on wine or marijuana - you could be accused of being drunk with anything.

I finally bought a parallel New Testament, with 7 English versions and the latest and best Greek version, so I can state 7 ways of expressing the New Testament idea that Jesus is the end and fulfillment of the Old Testament law (rules and regulations for living a righteous lifestyle). There are many verses that say that you may eat and drink anything, such as 1Cor 10:23, Romans 11, etc... sure, it also puts down sexual vice, drunkenness, hatred, and such, but the overall message is the importance of depending on Jesus as Lord and salvation into eternal life, depending on Jesus rather than a specific, detailed, rule-oriented code of actions. The only really crucial actions are non-material: if you love God and neighbor as yourself and "put faith" in Jesus as your only Lord, then you are saved. A Christianity of salvation through adherence to specific detailed codes and rules of conduct insufficiently elevates the requirements to love and to have faith. Codes of conduct are Not It. Faith and Love (the specific ones described above) are It.

Emphasis added.

For WHAT THE LAW, WEAKENED BY THE FLESH, WAS POWERLESS TO DO, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh.

-- Romans 8:3

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, HATH NOT ATTAINED TO THE LAW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS... BECAUSE THEY SOUGHT IT NOT BY FAITH [In Jesus], BUT... BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone [of being asked to believe in Jesus]... For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

-- Romans 9:32-10:3 King James version

[The Israelites] are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW SO THAT THERE MAY BE RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES [that he is the Lord, the only way to salvation into eternal life in the presence of God, and the only hope for being rescued from the pit of damnation]. ... The righteousness that is by faith says... that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart [not actions] that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. ... Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved [regardless of whether their conduct matches, in detail, the rules of the religious law].

-- Romans 10 (New International Version)

He [God] has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter [of the laws of righteous conduct] but of the Spirit [of faith in Jesus]; for THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE. -- 2Cor 3:6 NIV

There are many other verses too, but this is quite sufficient to demonstrate the actual position of the Bible.

Let he who judges by a detailed code of conduct extracted from the Bible (despite the Bible's overall warning against doing so] be condemned by that same code of conduct. This is a major point in _Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in a Free Society_ (1993 Peter McWilliams, recommended). If you believe in salvation through detailed codes of conduct, the Bible contains all sorts of crazy-assed rules and regulations that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to live up to.

You want to send people to heaven or hell based on a puff of pot because you consider it to be against God's command? Then may you yourself be sent to hell by your own judgement, because you broke the following law of your Bible:

The head of the woman is man. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disohonors her head. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off. - 1 Cor 11:3

If salvation were through following the detailed code of conduct of the Bible, even of just the New Testament, we would all be condemned to eternal torment. The Good News is that, while such rules or demands are in the New Testament, our salvation is ultimately, completely dependent on our complete dependence on Jesus as our only hope.

That is the clear message contained in the Bible. If you love LSD and want to be able to correct those who would persecute, demonize, scapegoat, punish, and kill explorers of altered states of consciousness, it is highly expedient that you are able to show Christians that the Bible puts salvation through faith far ahead of salvation through adherence to rules of conduct.

The Bible clearly states that IF OUR SALVATION WERE BASED ON OUR FULFILLMENT OF THE RULES OF CONDUCT IN THE BIBLE, WE WOULD ALL BE CONDEMNED, but God's mercy has provided us with Jesus Christ, who has spilled his blood for us, to cancel our sins against God and justify our salvation.

I am a conservative Christian, publically confessing faith in Jesus "with my lips" of my fingertips, and I have shown you that the Bible in no way prohibits using LSD or other drugs, and that the Holy Spirit has in fact used LSD to show the power of the Lord and bring many to depending on and believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Speaking not with my own authority, but with that of the Holy Spirit, I remind you of God's word, that you are free to apprehend and be drunken with the Eternal and Almighty power of the Lord through overwhelming doses of LSD, with bong hits turning you to rubbery stone at the peak, memories reeling by on celluloid like a windshield toward a fly. It is time to graduate from baby doses, and I have given you the anchor, the rock of ages to rescue you from your reliance on your own will when it threatens to turn against you.

If a Christian, pseudo-Christian, or whomever, says that drugs are a sin, you can reply something along the lines of the following:

"If our salvation were based on our fulfillment of the rules of conduct in the Bible, we would all be condemned, including you. The Bible clearly states that the crucial requirements for salvation are faith in Jesus, love of God, and love of our neighbors. No food or drink is specifically prohibited as rendering Jesus' sacrifice insufficient, for any sinner. I learned this from a conservative Christian who is an evangelical and Bible-based Protestant."

Much implication about Sabbath's relationship to Christianity, and also some implications for other acid-influenced rock groups (Rush, Metallica, recent Slayer, Queen, and several others that I've listed already).

"I'm a believer, I ain't no deceiver"
"God bless you all, I love you" -- Ozzy

People are being persecuted for their use of drugs, and the prisons are overflowing with citizens made into criminals and sinners through unjust laws and false doctrines.

Bible, psychoactives, salvation through faith not acts or prohibitions

Does the Bible say, "thou shalt be straight"? That is perhaps a more powerful approach to this question of doing dope.

But as far as this whole code-of-behavior, that is part of the old testament. Sinful humanity can never live up to the details of God's laws; it's only by Jesus's taking on our sins that we can be saved from God's just wrath.

>A fundie on the Haight told me that I could go to hell for masturbation. But taking such a code-based approach to salvation puts our salvation into our own hands. This "salvation through faith vs works" debate is unresolved.

When I stand before the Judge, I will declare myself an unworthy sinner on various and sundry counts -- whether doing dope is on the list or not, my main emphasis will be to ask for forgiveness based on my belief in Jesus as my Lord, my only hope for salvation from the lake of fire.

It behooves LSD users to understand certain essential doctrines in the new testament, which many voters take as the written word of the agreement or contract from God to humanity, and would like to make into a basis for enacting laws regulating everyone's conduct.

Those interested in the Biblical stance on sexual, recreational, and lifestyle freedom will also find this posting valuable, because it addresses the core of Bible-based morality and shows that adherence to rules of conduct are profoundly less significant than faith in Jesus and love for God and neighbor as for oneself.

This fundie believes that LSD can be a vehicle for the Holy Spirit. In other words, here is a Bible thumper, an actual street-corner evangelist holding a stenciled sign reading "Repent, Jesus is Coming", who thinks that LSD is less serious than masturbation, or not necessarily a sin at all. And this was a very rule-based Christian, too -- so much so that I will point out the verses to correct his attitude if I see him again. Meeting him and talking for hours was a great day for acid-inspired Christianity, for Christians who have been brought to faith by the Holy Spirit speaking through the little scrolls.

>If God is Love, then we are to seek peace, not war, over these `religious' rules not to get physically drunk on wine or marijuana - you could be accused of being drunk with anything.

>God loves you all and is waiting for you to see his presence, he wants you to live with him in heaven forever, why don't you let him in your heart, it's not that hard, you just have to realize the truth

I recommend getting a parallel New Testament. Mine has 7 English versions and the latest and best Greek version, so I can state 7 ways of expressing the New Testament idea that Jesus is the end and fulfillment of the Old Testament law (rules and regulations for living a righteous lifestyle). There are many verses that say that you may eat and drink anything, such as 1Cor 10:23, Romans 11, etc... sure, it also puts down sexual vice, drunkenness, hatred, and such, but the overall message is the importance of depending on Jesus as Lord and salvation into eternal life, depending on Jesus rather than a specific, detailed, rule-oriented code of actions. The only really crucial actions are non-material: if you love God and neighbor as yourself and "put faith" in Jesus as your only Lord, then you are saved. A Christianity of salvation through adherence to specific detailed codes and rules of conduct insufficiently elevates the requirements to love and to have faith. Codes of conduct are Not It. Faith and Love (the specific ones described above) are It.

The following quotes are hastily extracted, but anyone who wants can read the originals, to quibble over the wording. Emphasis added.

For WHAT THE LAW, WEAKENED BY THE FLESH, WAS POWERLESS TO DO, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh.

-- Romans 8:3

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, HATH NOT ATTAINED TO THE LAW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS... BECAUSE THEY SOUGHT IT NOT BY FAITH [In Jesus], BUT... BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone [of being asked to believe in Jesus]... For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

-- Romans 9:32-10:3 King James version

[The Israelites] are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW SO THAT THERE MAY BE RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES [that he is the Lord, the only way to salvation into eternal life in the presence of God, and the only hope for being rescued from the pit of damnation]. ... The righteousness that is by faith says... that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart [not actions] that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. ... Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved [regardless of whether their conduct matches, in detail, the rules of the religious law].

-- Romans 10 (New International Version)

He [God] has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter [of the laws of righteous conduct] but of the Spirit [of faith in Jesus]; for THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE. -- 2Cor 3:6 NIV

There are many other verses too, but this is quite sufficient to demonstrate the actual position of the Bible.

Let he who judges by a detailed code of conduct extracted from the Bible (despite the Bible's overall warning against doing so] be condemned by that same code of conduct. This is a major point in _Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in a Free Society_ (1993 Peter McWilliams, recommended). If you believe in salvation through detailed codes of conduct, the Bible contains all sorts of crazy-assed rules and regulations that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to live up to.

You want to send people to heaven or hell based on a puff of pot because you consider it to be against God's command? Then may you yourself be sent to hell by your own judgement, because you broke the following law of your Bible:

The head of the woman is man. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disohonors her head. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off. - 1 Cor 11:3

If salvation were through following the detailed code of conduct of the Bible, even of just the New Testament, we would all be condemned to eternal torment. The Good News is that, while such rules or demands are in the New Testament, our salvation is ultimately, completely dependent on our complete dependence on Jesus as our only hope.

That is the clear message contained in the Bible. If you love LSD and want to be able to correct those who would persecute, demonize, scapegoat, punish, and kill explorers of altered states of consciousness, it is highly expedient that you are able to show Christians that the Bible puts salvation through faith far ahead of salvation through adherence to rules of conduct.

The Bible clearly states that IF OUR SALVATION WERE BASED ON OUR FULFILLMENT OF THE RULES OF CONDUCT IN THE BIBLE, WE WOULD ALL BE CONDEMNED, but God's mercy has provided us with Jesus Christ, who has spilled his blood for us, to cancel our sins against God and justify our salvation.

I am a conservative Christian, publically confessing faith in Jesus "with my lips" of my fingertips, and I have shown you that the Bible in no way prohibits using LSD or other drugs, and that the Holy Spirit has in fact used LSD to show the power of the Lord and bring many to depending on and believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Speaking not with my own authority, but with that of the Holy Spirit, I remind you of God's word, that you are free to apprehend and be drunken with the Eternal and Almighty power of the Lord through overwhelming doses of LSD, with bong hits turning you to rubbery stone at the peak, memories reeling by on celluloid like a windshield toward a fly. It is time to graduate from baby doses, and I have given you the anchor, the rock of ages to rescue you from your reliance on your own will when it threatens to turn against you.

[to do: link to Devo lyrics about prayer and loss of control, on my Rock page]

Take note: If a Christian, pseudo-Christian, or whomever, says that dope is a sin, you can reply something along the lines of the following:

"If our salvation were based on our fulfillment of the rules of conduct in the Bible, we would all be condemned, including you. The Bible clearly states that the crucial requirements for salvation are faith in Jesus, love of God, and love of our neighbors. No food or drink is specifically prohibited as rendering Jesus' sacrifice insufficient, for any sinner. I learned this from a conservative Christian who is an evangelical and Bible-based Protestant."

Your message is a criticism of the legitimacy of Chrisianity, as conventionally conceived. However, my point is not whether conventional Bible-based Christianity is legitimate, but rather, that careful study of the Bible shows that salvation does not depend on law-type doctrines, such as whether you eat meat, drink, or use LSD. People who profess to be conservative Bible-based Christians must admit that the Book says salvation definitely depends on belief in Jesus (and love for neighbors and God), but that adherence law, in general, fails to have saving power -- we can break such doctrinal laws and be saved, as long as we believe in Jesus. Sure, it's possible to argue against this view... but difficult, and these dogmatic, law-oriented Christians aren't even trying. They always blurt out there views as though they are established Biblical fact, but you never hear a Christian citing verses to back up their confident doctrines. It's like the conservative argument against drugs -- there is no such argument, but merely an attitude. there is an established, "customary" so-called Christian attitude against drugs, but no Christian attempts to make a coherent, explicit, Bible-based argument against drugs, because were they to try, they would instantly see what a weak case they would have.

It is impossible to use the Bible to claim that drugs are against the will of God. The second a Christian attempts to do so, by studying the Bible, they will be forced to back down, because it is so obvious, on so many pages, that God cares about belief in Jesus, rather than fulfillment of codes of edicts. The Bible definitely emphasizes salvation through the heart. Yes, it does state some detailed requirements about human activity, but then it turns around and strongly emphasizes belief, instead of such laws.

In responding to flip remarks demonizing drugs, made by superficial Christians, I have wanted to take a conservative Bible-based stance, to address them on what is supposedly their own ground.

While there are indeed statements against drunkenness or drinking, they are subservient to the overall idea of salvation by faith rather than law. Yes, the Bible often wants it both ways, but faith clearly dominates over law.

Assuming Bible-based attitudes, it is clearly illegitimate for a Christian to claim as a Biblical doctrine that drugs are a serious sin that can prevent salvation.

The New Testament neither specifically advocates drug use, nor specifically prohibits them; but rather, they are generally condoned, at least -- and this is certain -- they are condoned as far as the absolute requirements for salvation.

>You are basing your entire arguement on an outdated, badly mistranslated, seldom properly understood book.

"Basing your argument on"? Well, that's one way of putting it. Yes, I am arguing against drug-vilifying Christians based on the only basic for logic they supposedly respect. It would be futile to argue with them on some other basis, given that they claim to be basing their drug attitudes on that basis.

I am not saying that it's a good idea to formulate law using the Bible as a basis. I am pointing out that on the whole, the Bible forbids people from codifying its rules into a legal or legalistic moral system.

>The first accounts of Jesus' life were recorded nearly 35 years after his death. The various gospels in the Bible have obvious contridictions in regard to the life and death of Jesus, as well as the general teachings of Jesus. Compare the words of Paul to thoses ascribed to Jesus. Fact, the Bible is war time literature, written by the followers of Jesus, who had not only a religious message to deliver, but also a politcal message. Many people have misunderstood this, taking the Bible literally and therefore, bastardizing the original meaning of the texts. Fact, the Bible that we read today is nothing more than a cannonized version of different writings regarding the life, death, and teachings of Christ. Many more writings exist on the subject, all written roughly the same time as the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, but with a very different message. Read the Gospel of Thomas or other Gnostic Gospels and see the difference.

>If the Bible is actually the word of God, there would be no disagreement about the intent and meaning of the teachings.

This statement is purely an unjustified, arbitrary assumption. But it might be of little relevance.

>However, the Bible is so loose and full of holes, it is open to a wide number of interpretations. That's why there are so many "Christian" sects and denominations.

Reading these 7 translations of the new testament, I am confident that the Bible in fact is strict, not wide open, that we are saved by faith rather than by adherence to codes of conduct. It is possible, but not legitimate, for people to use the Bible as a hammer for forcing lifestyle laws upon others.

>The "Christianity" most people follow is actually the teachings of Paul, a man who was never aquainted with the supposed Messiah and one who did not care about the life and teachings of said person, but was instead interested in the signifacance of his death (i.e. "Jesus died for us").

Yes, that's Pauline Christianity. There's also Jonanine (sp) Christianity and Gnostic Christianity, the Essenes, etc. There certainly are very different flavors, which is why I clarified that I was taking the specific stance called "evangelical conservative Protestant Bible-based Christianity". Also, there is Roman Catholocism. The worst of the ignorant, dogmatic, superficial Christians don't even know the elementary facts about the differences between Protestantism and Catholocism. One hopes that at least they can differentiate between Judiasm and (Bible-based) Christianity, but they're working on glossing that over too.

>The concept of "Satan" varies throughout the Bible and this character takes on different forms and meanings throughout the Book. For instance, in the Old Testament Satan is regarded as the obstructor, One who is not neccessarily evil or the Anti-Thesis of the Lord, rather as an agent of the Lord, often the Lord, himself, whose purpose is to obstruct humans from doing more harm than they already are doing.

Yes, I think that God is the author of evil though he often projects that onto Satan and disowns evil. "God, the creator of good and evil." -- Old testament

Interesting points, but they might not be relevant to our main concern here: refuting the "Christian" pseudo-doctrines against drug use.

>In the early Gospels, as in Mark, Satan is taken to mean the Jews, who were seen as the enemies of early Christianity. Later, in the Bible, Satan is associated with the Romans and pagans, who are considered the enemies of Christianity. However, as I stated early, this was war time literature and is not that different from George Bush calling Saddam Hussein the "Great Satan." Fact, Revelations was written in prison, in code, and is also a condemnation of the State and the fiery end it shall meet.

Yes, but it is not impossible that this will end up being more than that -- it could end up being an accurate vision of a future global apocalypse.

>However, for centuries it has been regarded as something much different. During the period shortly before the Reformation, only Priests were allowed to read and interpret the Bible, which was written in Latin and unreadable by the masses. Martin Luther, a raging anti-semite, had problems with this, posted his 95 tracts against the Church and translated the Bible into a language understandable by the majority of German citizens. In doing so, he took the liberty to readapt texts to make them more poetic and fitting to the times. This led to the Protestant Reformation, which greatly changed the face of Christianity.

>If the Bible is the true word of God, there would not be different versions of said book, such as the King James VERSION of the Bible.

Arbitrary assumption.

>I could go on and on. I think its great that you have found Bible passages that fit your way of life, but one can easily manipulate the Bible to do just that.

I don't see it quite that way -- the Bible does not "fit my way of life" in some specific, detailed way, but rather, the Bible generally forbids others from restricting my way of life while using the Bible as justification to do so.

>That's what many people have done over the centuries. The Bible justified killing Jews, Witches, Homosexuals, Gypsies, and anyone else who disagreed with its supposed teachings. The Bible has been used to justify wars, the death penalty, biggotry, slavery, hatred, and sexism (just among a few). Sure, I can find many passages in the Bible that are favorable to drug use. Then again, I can find some that are strictly opposed to drug use (look throughout the teachings of Paul).

"Many passages favorable to drug use" -- the word 'favorable' sounds a little too positively loaded; of course you mean "favorable" as in "permissive" or "stating that ingesting any particular foods is not forbidden". The Bible hardly encourages or recommends drugs or drinking.

Does Paul say things that are "strictly opposed to drug use"? I'll look, but I don't know yet what you have in mind.

In general, the New Testament rejects making salvation dependent upon adherence to doctrines, except for the doctrine which replaces "the law" -- love God and neighbor, and believe in Jesus.

These arguments provide a better position to engage with, and refute, those Christians who pronounce on behalf of God that drugs are against the will of God, and prevent salvation... and should "therefore" be made illegal, and that drug users should be locked up and have their freedom taken away and lives ruined, in the name of justice and righteousness and favor in the eyes of God. They think they will have a greater chance of getting into heaven if they persecute some unrighteous group destined for hell.

Some moral laws are given, in the NT, but they are repeatedly negated or defused by the emphasis that salvation depends on belief, not action. True, the Bible wants it both ways -- however, there is much greater emphasis, repeatedly, that belief (in Jesus as Lord) is vastly more crucial than adherence to moral laws.

One point that hasn't been addressed is that even if the Bible did say that drugs are against the will of God, and prevent salvation, that does not mean that Christians are obliged to hate them and permitted to enact laws against them -- formal prohibition -- and take away the freedom and ruin the lives of users.

_Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in a Free Society_ -- recommended. A good, interesting book.

If you read my Theory, you will be able to trip harder, and understand that CRAZY feeling of moral transgression of your own will, as your own power bends back around to cancel itself out in a great short-circuit.

Scriptures about eating bittersweet scrolls delivered by angels, Bible passages permitting ingesting anything.

(emphasis added)

Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. (Ezekiel 1:5).

When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. (Ezekiel 1:21)

And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings. (Ezekiel 1:24)

But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; BE NOT THOU REBELLIOUS LIKE THAT REBELLIOUS HOUSE: OPEN THEY MOUTH, AND EAT THAT I GIVE THEE. And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, A ROLL OF A BOOK was therein; And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without... (Ezekiel 2:8-9)

Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, EAT THAT THOU FINDEST; EAT THIS ROLL, and go speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. And he said unto me, Son of man, cause they belly to eat, and fill they bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was IN MY MOUTH AS HONEY for sweetness. (Ezekiel 3:1-3)

So THE SPIRIT LIFTED ME UP, AND TOOK ME AWAY, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the Lord was strong upon me. (Ezekiel 3:14)

Revelation 10:

AND I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Christian prohibitionists, The Enlightenment

>I wish there was a way to do as you say, to learn to debate and not "war" ... but this is wholly dependent on the individuals and their CHOICE to not fall into the us/them, good/evil, right/wrong mindset. We've had over 2,000 years of war, death, and destruction due to these simplistic and toxic beliefs in various cultures in our society. But in all those 2000+ years, not one group has stood up and said "We have been duped! It is our very religion/government, the VERY BELIEFS we CHOOSE to believe that are causing our suffering, our pain, our war! The VERY GOD WE _CHOOSE_ TO PRAY TO IS THE REASON WE ARE MURDERING EACH OTHER" (Just look at the euopean and middle-east countries as prime examples.)

>true. But how do you educate those people who have these toxic beliefs to look in the mirror? Their very beliefs deny the existence of the possibility of introspection. So, at the very best, we can only hope that humanity as a whole will throw out those modes of thought and belief that not only encourages, but actually FORCES people to believe and act as you wish they would NOT do. And in all 2000+ years, nobody has noticed that it is theirselves and their OWN choices that are continuing this senseless loss of knowledge and lives.

Caught in endless circles of "an eye for an eye", only forgiveness could break out of the loop -- to forego revenge.

I read some more of _Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do: The Absurdity of Consesual Crime in a Free Society_. He has so many interesting points about Christianity. It's a unique book that contributes a lot on the topic of hypocrisy and self-righteous violence and hatred. He disproves a lot of unbiblical conservative assumptions about Jesus too. A vengeance-filled Christian clashes so much with the biblical sayings of Jesus. Well, I may be digressing - but I do heartily recommend the book.

We must not let ourselves be carried away with cynicism, even in the face of gut-wrenching history. The Enlightenment and America would never have occured without faith in humanity and rational individualism. People can change and often do. In particular, I am addressessing the borderline people, who have one foot in reason, and the other foot is being pulled into unreason. There is where hope lies: those people who have some ability to refuse to respond to blind emotion of hatred, with more of the same. This is where the change must take place: people who can, should respond to hatred not with more hatred, but with peace-making ability. How to transmutate hatred into peace? It starts with refusing to respond to hatred with counter-hatred. It can be done; there's nothing stopping us from doing it -- nothing stops us from responding to flames with reason.

Because I asserted that Rush is essentially an acid rock band, some people who seem to know nothing but the standard cliches about "crazed drug-using morons" felt that I had blasphemed their gods. In my response, I continued to judge and disagree with people, but in a way other than condemning and slurring them. I did not back down on my opinions, but neither did I burst into flaming.

Psychoactives and Christianity

>I'm a Catholic studying at the seminar to become a priest I must tell you that God has given us all the plants on this planet to enjoy (read the first two chapters of Genisis).The only thing that we must be aware of is that we don't overdo it. When drugs get more important to us the the people we love and care for, then and only at that time. The lord will say that we have overdone it.

Soon, you'll be ready to read my articles such as Dose for Jesus: Tripping on the Holy Spirit.

Fundamentalist Protestantism, problem of evil

I come not in my own name, but in the name of Jesus, my Lord and savior. I am saved from hell only by my belief in Jesus. Most people will be condemned from the presence of the Lord, because they refuse to believe in Jesus, because the Lord put disbelief in their hearts. Almost everyone will be condemned to torture in Hell for eternity, because God is the god of Love and Justice, and those who are so evil as to refuse to believe in His Son, must submit to ENDLESS TORMENT IN FIRE AND BRIMSTONE! And this disbelief was put in their hearts by God, who is all-powerful and works in mysterious ways that don't make sense to mere thinking humans, blinded by the errors that have been given unto them by the Lord, who is the god of Truth.

We Christian fundamentalists are not all in agreement. When it comes to Wod, many of them open the Bible, and see the silence of God on the drug issue. Others close the Bible and loudly proclaim, as a favor to God, the unrighteousness of drug use. It is obvious to them that doing so increases their righteousness points in God's eyes, and of course maximizing your righteousness points is the most valuable activity a man can pursue.

We're lucky to be able to search the online bibles for 'drug'. Fundamentalists who disagree with this fundamentalist, please post passages from the Bible showing that God is not in favor of drugs, to show me the error of concluding that:

The Holy Spirit -- God -- may very well be using drugs as a vehicle.

A friend of a friend was in the Holy Spirit through LSD when he was baptised in the Church of Christ, a solidly Bible-based church that would not be so accepting of sinful humanity's ways as to have a church organ. You cannot explain to me where the Bible is against drugs, because it is not against drugs. Christians who disagree, please post the passages to support your point. Any doctrine that a Christian holds that they are unable to support through Bible verses, is not actually a "Christian" attitude, but rather, a worldly attitude of a a particular person who is nominally a Christian.. Please post any passages that you can find that support the assertion that "drug use is against the will of God."

The Holy Spirit has often answered people who knock on his door, and they have FOUND JESUS IN A LITTLE PURPLE PILL - the Jesus freaks in the early 70s, for example. It behooves the Catholic church, which is about establishing political power over everyone, to use the war on drugs to take away people's rights. The Protestant church has no such motive, because it is not about attaining worldly political power.

By taking strong doses of LSD and losing self-control, by seeing through the illusory aspect of the power of self, and by seeing the omnipotence of God as he acts throughout history, you are forced to kneel in supplication, as your will cancels itself out, leaving fate in command and logically eliminating free will as the true origin of action. Many acid rock artists have reported this.

This sinful world is about to be taken over, through the Catholic church, by the antichrist, who seems to possess transcendent power. But when Jerusalem proves to be the only thing in the way of global political unity and peace, antichrist will use the military forces at his command to destroy her, "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (Rev 17:17).

Emotionalism against users of psychoactives; Christian violence

Shallow moralistic Christians assume that drugs are evil. This is unfounded and unbiblical. There are multiple flavors of Christianity, but certainly, it is supposed to be about love and faith, not about vindictiveness and the worship of codes-of-conduct. Demonizing drugs is unbiblical, like so many actions carried out in Jesus' name.

I have huge doubts about God, the death on the cross, and the atrocities of Catholic and Protestant history. But I am going to die, and I continue to ask Jesus/God to give me an afterlife, if such a thing exists, and I profess faith in Jesus as Lord.

Drugs, psychedelics, and especially LSD, may well be used as a vehicle for the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not forbid or demonize drugs, and its statements about drunkenness and wine are hardly applicable to LSD. In case you are so straight that you know nothing about LSD except the worthless pop associations, cliches, and rumors, I'll point out that it is very different than alcohol, and LSD inebriation is totally different than vulgar drunkenness. LSD gives religious insight into the power of Fate and our separate existence as a self-governing agent, and the illusionary aspect of human will and self-control.

The best use of pot? Smoke it 3 hours into a trip, to turn the world into an unreal, rubbery lava lamp, and become a Rubber Soul. I wish people would quit wasting their time with pot, and explore the truly interesting sacrament. From my point of view, I have come to the attitude that pot is a wimpy toy for adolescent boys; acid is for the industrial-strength adults who are serious about philosophy, religion, and cognitive science. Pot doesn't go anywhere much, whereas acid takes you across the universe and shines a too-bright light on the gears of your mind.. Pot's not bad, but it can be a distraction and an imposter.

Christian violence through history

Why I Quit Going To Church - by Rupert Hughes, 1924. Excerpts:

I simply let religion slide and went about my business, trying to be as decent and honest and kindly as I could. Finally a tremendous thing came to me: the offer of a job as assistant editor of a great history of the world in twenty-five volumes. I was actually paid a salary to sit at a desk and read or go to a great library and delve among books. For four years I read history from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. daily. The history of every nation went through my head. It was paradise on earth. But a serpent seems to be part of the furniture of every paradise.

So now I had to read the religious history of every country. And I was unutterably dismayed to find that the worst crimes in every nation were committed in the name of religion by religious people. In every country the blackest pages were the religious pages, and of all the religions, savage or civilized, the Christian religion had the most horrible record.

By "religion" I do not mean the ingrained instincts of goodness, bravery, love, and loyalty that influence all mankind and many of the animals. I mean the belief in and obedience to a definite superhuman power. It seems to me as dishonest to use the word "religion" for everything decent as it is to pretend that "God-fearing" people are any more honest, pure, or kindly than anybody else.

I know and love and revere many intensely religious people, priests, clergymen, and church-workers, but I know, detest, and despise many intensely religious people, priests, clergymen and church-workers, and life has deeply convinced me that religion is not to credit for the humanity of good people, but is to blame for the worst inhumanities of mankind.

Where in all the grisly records of human cruelty is there anything to match the Inquisition of Spain, the Crusade against the Albigenses, and the religious tortures of all the Christian nations? I shudder and ache to think of the screams of tortured myriads, the smell of burning flesh, the crackle of broken bones, the mad appeals for mercy, the vain protestations of belief.

In the name of Christ, Christian potentates sat with their women and children and watched helpless Christians [insert "drug users" here] burn; great vicars of Christ sat and gloated while Christians bound to stakes shrieked amid slow flames purposely kept at a distance. They screamed as their flesh seared and cackled: "In the name of the sweet Jesus whom I worship, bring the fire closer." But their appeals were mocked. Not once, not twice, but tens of thousands of times!

This was not the work of illiterates in the jungle. It was the careful, prayerful work of the most enlightened Christians, and the infamy was committed not upon one or two poor souls but upon thousands, upon myriads. It was committed in all the cities and towns of Christendom.

Voltaire, who ardently believed in a God though not in Christianity, quotes the remarkable summing up of arguments against Christianity by Freret, who concluded that this horrid and almost uninterrupted chain of religious wars for fourteen centuries never subsisted but among Christians, and that no people but themselves ever spilt a drop of human blood for theological dispute.

How can a Christian hold his head up and admit that myriads of women were burned alive for witchcraft? John Wesley said that if you give up witchcraft you must give up the Bible. He is right. The choice is easy for me.

Wherein lies this so much trumpeted beauty of Christianity, when it is plain, indisputable fact that no other religion ever approached or attempted to approach the unbearable beastliness of Christianity? It stings me to think of it. I could break down and sob with pity for the poor dear people that were caught in those traps of theology and tormented slowly into their graves. Yet these things happened at the very zenith of the power of the Christian religion.

Believing that freedom of soul, mind and body is the most important privilege of humanity and the one hope of progress, I was stunned to find on reading the history of the world that the religious mind has always been opposed to liberty and equality.

The religion of prohibition

Religious experience is largely about submitting to the awesome omnipotence of the higher realm. Dominance and submission is more common driving theme than people realize. Slavery has been the rule, not the exception. 'Servant' = 'slave'. To be man's servant, or God's or Jesus's servant, or the guru's servant, is a fake euphemism -- the essential meaning is to be his slave. I have in mind, cybernetic slave -- unit A drives and controls unit B, though unit B has a scope of control power. Unit A has a broader scope of control power, than subsumes B's control. This drives the prohibitionists.

Wired had a good article about the fatal schism in the Republican party, of the economic vs. cultural republicans. I think that the religious right doesn't really care about sheltering their children. What really drives them is the lustful urge to dominate others, to make slaves out of other citizens by arbitrarily denying them priveledges. That's what really excites the religious right -- the opportunity to restrict others, for the sake of restriction. Sounds like the Biblical Jews, obsessed with restrictions, conceiving of God primarily as a restrictor-entity. "Thou shalt not" is, in itself, the mark of power and authority, the driving, dominant guidance and control mechanism. So, worship prohibition itself. Prohibition becomes a religious act, a religion. These religious republicans do not worship Jesus. They worship the power of prohibition.


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